Afghanistan: The Permanent War (Bill Moyers With Colonel Andrew Bacevich -- Video & Transcript)

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Exceptional discussion from Friday night's Bill Moyers Journal.

Welcome to the Journal. The war in Afghanistan has claimed more than one thousand American lives and in the last two years alone the lives of more than four thousand Afghan civilians. It's costing American taxpayers over three-and-a-half billion dollars every month—a total of some $264 billion so far. But for all that, in the words of one policy analyst quoted by the New York Times this week, "there are no better angels about to descend on Afghanistan."

The news from that torturous battleground continues to dismay, discourage and enrage. America's designated driver there, Hamid Karzai, is proving increasingly unstable behind the wheel. The United States put Karzai in power and our soldiers have been fighting and dying on his behalf ever since. Despite widespread corrupton in his government. Now he's making threats against the western coalition that is shedding blood and treasure on his behalf.

Even more disturbing,for the moment, are the civilian deaths from nighttime raids andaerial bombings by American and other NATO troops. Just this week, we learned of an apparent cover-up following a Special Forces raid in February that killed five civilians, including three women, two of whom were pregnant. It's believed bullets were gouged from the women's bodies to conceal evidence of American involvement.

This slaughter of innocents has led the pro-American "Economist" magazine to question whether ourentire effort in Afghanistan" has been nothing but a meaningless exercise of misguided violence."

With me is a man with first-hand experience of war. Andrew Bacevich served 23 years, some of them in Vietnam, before retiring from the Army. He's now professor of history and international relations at Boston University. Just this week he was at a US Army War College symposium on the highly pertinent question, "How do we know when a war is over?" His book, "The Limits of Power," was a best-seller and his latest, "Washington Rules: America's Path to Permanent War," comes out this summer. Andrew Bacevich, welcome back to the Journal.

Bacevich quote:

• "One of the most interesting and perplexing things that's happened in the past three, four years is that in many respects, the officer corps itself has given up on the idea of military victory... they say that there is no military solution in Afghanistan, that we will not win a military victory, that the only solution to be gained - if there is one - is through bringing to success this project of armed nation-building. What makes that interesting to a military historian of my Vietnam generation is that the collective purpose of the officer corps after Vietnam, this humiliation that we had experienced, was to demonstrate that war works, that war could be purposeful, that out of collision on the battlefield would come decision [and] victory... The officer corps has, I think, unwittingly forfeited its claim to providing a unique and important service to American society. Why, if indeed the purpose of the exercise in Afghanistan is - to put it crudely - drag this country into the modern world, why put a four-star general in charge of that? Why not put a successful mayor of a big city? Why not put a legion of social reformers? Because the war in Afghanistan is not a war as the American military traditionally conceives of war."

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Guest Biography:

Andrew J. Bacevich is professor of international relations and history at Boston University. A graduate of the U. S. Military Academy, he received his Ph. D. in American diplomatic history from Princeton University. Before joining the faculty of Boston University in 1998, he taught at West Point and at Johns Hopkins University.

Dr. Bacevich is the author of THE LIMITS OF POWER: AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM (2008). His previous books include AMERICAN EMPIRE: THE REALITIES AND CONSEQUENCES OF U. S. DIPLOMACY (2002), THE IMPERIAL TENSE: PROBLEMS AND PROSPECTS OF AMERICAN EMPIRE (2003, editor), THE NEW AMERICAN MILITARISM: HOW AMERICANS ARE SEDUCED BY WAR (2005), and THE LONG WAR: A NEW HISTORY OF US NATIONAL SECURITY POLICY SINCE WORLD WAR II (2007, editor).

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Nine years after America invaded Afghanistan in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, American and NATO troops remain involved in heavy fighting. One year ago, President Barack Obama committed additional troops to the war while vowing to begin reducing levels in 2011. Though Obama revised "success" from creating a democratic Afghanistan to a stable one, grim news continues to emerge from Afghanistan. Andrew Bacevich, a professor at Boston University and former U.S. Army Colonel, thinks that even President Obama's pessimistic predictions for the country are too optimistic.

Bacevich joins Bill Moyers on the JOURNAL to provide history and context to the news reports and explain why he believes America needs to rethink its foreign policy completely.

Comments

[DailyBail]

Can the U.S. Military Achieve Victory in Afghanistan?

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2010/04/can_the_us_military_achieve_vi.html

[DailyBail]

transcript part 1

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04092010/transcript3.html

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transcript for the web exclusive portion

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04092010/bacevichwatch.html

[DailyBail]

The Aging of Robert Rubin (Photos)

http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2010/04/09/the-aging-of-robert-rubin/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wsj%2Fdeals%2Ffeed+%28WSJ.com%3A+Deal+Journal+-+WSJ.com%29

[DailyBail]

Has anyone watched this yet? Can't recommend it highly enough...

[DailyBail]

Gompers...i would like to hear your thoughts after you view it...

[Lauren Ayers]

Andrew Bacevich said, "We are squandering our treasure... [and] losing lives for no purpose." Actually, the arms dealers are delighted that we're there. Isn't it time to show how they, and the other war support systems, such as Halliburton, benefit?

[DailyBail]

Lauren...good point...one of the problems is that halliburton, blackwater have all been exposed and still the american people sleep...recent poll I saw showed only 35% disagreed with obama's plan in afghanistan...as moyers said 99.5% of us just go about our days with little thought to either war...because there is no longer a general draft (as in vietnam) there is no 'general outrage.'

[DailyBail]

DES MOINES, Iowa -- A 12-year-old girl has been arrested for trespassing after she allegedly refused to leave U.S. Sen. Tom Harkin's office in Des Moines while protesting the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

http://www.kcci.com/politics/23099973/detail.html

[S. Gompers]

I would recommend everyone read Col. Bacevich's books, I have them all. Modern states are very adept at fighting guerillas, provided they are willing to be sufficiently patient and sufficiently ruthless with them, and the guerillas are not supplied and aided by another state or states. In the long run, organization gives the modern state an overwhelming advantage in both logistics and tactical ability.

Karzai, by many, is viewed as a puppet. Many in the region view our involvement as Colonialism/ Empire building, as has happened in their past. The Afghan people have traditionally been wary of outsiders, as many have tried to rule them in the past. This sentiment is being exploited by the Taliban, as well as anything else they can exploit, such as civilian casuaties.

Col. Bacevich's assessment is correct that Osama bin Laden is not Adolf Hitler, Al-Qaeda is not Nazi Germany, but rather it is a transnational criminal conspiracy. Osama would more appropriately be Che Guevara.

Other forces are at play in this theater as well, Iran looking to dot our eye, our own military/ industrial complexes profiteering, their own governmental corruption, etc...

We do make it easy for their propaganda machine.

To beat this, we must deny safe refuge, cut off the flow of money, material goods, and arms to the insurgents, and stop the flow of new recruits from other nations to the battlefield. This would be a daunting task.

In a stand up fight we would squash them like a bug, but they will not stand and fight. They use propaganda, and terror against the populace to nip at the heels in the fashion of Che Guevara.

To win the battle for hearts and minds, the people must see corruption and profiteering ending, their lives improving, security and services restored, and wanton acts of violence (carbombs etc.) diminishing.

[Norman Morley]

As the Col. said, 99 & 1/2 % of the American public goes about its business, while 1/2 % fight. The "war" is not winnable from a Military stand point. Yet, this Government continues to pour both treasury & blood into it.

One has to question exactly who's side the U.S.Government is on? After all this time & still no solution, then perhaps every person who supports in talk, for the war, should then walk the walk. Bring the military men & women home, while shipping all these supporters to replace them. Otherwise, the terrorists aren't in Afghanistan, but right here in Washington. Oh, all those baby boomers on Wall Street can join the replacements too.

[Zarathustra]

Norman, great idea, show me to the red button.

[RecoverylessRecovery]

The Afghans are handing U.S. military forces there a very healthy serving of WHOOP-ASS, very similar to the one they served to the Soviets. Relying mostly on camels & smoke-signals they've managed to teach America that all the Predators and 'nucular' armaments are USELESS when you're up against people WITH BALLS.

I would have thought the U.S. had ALREADY learned that lesson thanks to the can of WHOOP-ASS they were served by the North Vietnamese.

Go figure.

[JTS]

Balls has nothing to do with it. Do you know how many Vietnamese died compared to Americans does this mean we won they
won.One thing and one thing only stops us from killing all of them .We are not as Barbaric .
You are a idiot RR you think it takes BALLS to fly a plane into a building or as charlie did shoot a person and leave them laying
to die yelling for help so they can draw more into a ambush.You should be proud as i can tell you are VERY open minded.
Also DB i dont think that was a 12 year old girl i think it was Ken in hie Natural state LOL:)

[Zarathustra]

JTS...RLR is in high school.

[JTS]

Must be public .Or his he home schooled by Ken.Man its fun making fun of a missing person .well missing something.

[RecoverylessRecovery]

"One thing and one thing only stops us from killing all of them"

YES. The simple FACT that you CANNOT *KILL* AN IDEAL, regardless of how many men, woman and children you war criminal bastards bomb & torture & rape & burn.

BTW, remotely piloting a DRONE aircraft that murders SCORES of innocent people THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY from the comfort and safety of your office while you sip a cup of coffee is AS COWARDLY as flying an airplane into an office building.

If not MORE so.

[RecoverylessRecovery]

You really HAVE to admire these Afghans as fighters.

Hopelessly out-financed, lacking proper technology, suffering from inferior formal military training, they took-on TWO world superpowers back to back ...and KICKED *BOTH* THEIR ASSES !!!

ANYONE that admires fighting courage, dedication and gumption has GOT TO BE rooting for these guys.

I know *I* am !

[Zarathustra]

I am watching a really bad episode of House, I think the show has finally jumped the shark.

[RecoverylessRecovery]

Speaking of sharks; why don't you fall into one while its mouth is open?

[Zarathustra]

House got better at the end and the previews for next week looked okay, we shall see. I will let you know next week RLR. Thank you for your concern.

[Zarathustra]

By the way, not sharks, SHARK...just one.

[RecoverylessRecovery]

Hey how about those Afghans? They sure kick some American butt huh?

[Zarathustra]

Hmmmm...you must have missed the video shot from the helicopter.

[RecoverylessRecovery]

You mean the one that recently surfaced showing how a helicopter cold-bloodedly mows down a Reuters camera crew AND the good samaritan (together with his 2 children) who stopped to offer aid?

[RecoverylessRecovery]

(((sounds of crickets chirping against the dead of silence)))

[RecoverylessRecovery]

Sooo, how about that Afghani ASSWHOOPING the U.S. is getting?

[S. Gompers]

I answered you on another post, body counts say you are delirious, which is common in those on smack supporting the Taliban. Show me one battle in the Revolution where women and children were placed in the middle of a battle to create civilian casualties.

http://dailybail.com/home/exposed-crash-the-tea-party-infiltration-effort.html#comment8062778

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2010/02/18/2003466096
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/17/taliban-human-shields
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/17/taliban-using-human-shields_n_465119.html

No one was killed in the Revolution for their religion.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-South-Central/2009/0227/p04s03-wosc.html



What you refer to as the British claim of us not standing and fighting was that we would not stand in a line with a clearly visible X on our chests.

To beat this, we must deny safe refuge, cut off the flow of money, material goods, and arms to the insurgents, and stop the flow of new recruits from other nations to the battlefield. the people must see corruption and profiteering ending, their lives improving, security and services restored, and wanton acts of violence diminishing. The people of Afghanistan merely fear the insurgents more, or they would handle the problem while the Taliban slept.

Business and politicians will not allow this, and neither will people like you.

The U.S. soldier is one of the most dedicated and trained in the world, but they do not run wars.

Politicians and the industrial military complex do, and their goals are not always the same. Chase the dragon, and serve your master well...

You did not answer my two questions;

When did the Taliban annex Manhattan? Or any other target outside of your homeland.

Did you change teams over a rejection?

Al-Qaeda is a transnational criminal conspiracy, nothing more, but it is being aided by many, domestic and foreign.

[RecoverylessRecovery]

"I answered you on another post, body counts say you are delirious, which is common in those on smack supporting the Taliban. Show me one battle in the Revolution where women and children were placed in the middle of a battle to create civilian casualties. "

You don't get it Gomp; the Taliban DO NOT put their woman & children "in the middle of a battle".

YOU DO when you send your beloved over-sexed, stormtrooping high-school drop-outs to wreak HAVOC upon and shoot-up their supermarkets, public squares, streets, office buildings, schools, hospitals, factories, highways ..you get the picture.

BTW just for the record, I DO NOT "support" the Taliban. I support people's RIGHT to chose the form of government that they want WITHOUT some psychopathic assholes WHO LIVE HALFWAY AROUND THE GLOBE coming to meddle in their affairs and blowing them up.

The Taliban is NOT a 'terrorist' entity. It's a LIFESTYLE.

Let them live THEIRS and you war criminals can LIVE YOURS.

[S. Gompers]

"You don't get it Gomp; the Taliban DO NOT put their woman & children "in the middle of a battle".

No, I do get it, and you are wrong, they do. I will let you in on a little secret, as long as there is war, there will be friendly fire, and civilian casualties, on all sides.

It is the nature of things. No matter who it is, war is the end result of failed diplomacy, unless it is waged for the rich to become richer, or more powerful...

"I DO NOT "support" the Taliban."

You keep saying you do.

"I support people's RIGHT to chose the form of government that they want WITHOUT some psychopathic assholes WHO LIVE HALFWAY AROUND THE GLOBE coming to meddle in their affairs and blowing them up."

I do support that right, but the Taliban does not believe in that right, they kill Christians, women, children, political opposition, rule by fear and intimidation, they take over and do not win elections. And they are psychopathic assholes WHO LIVE HALFWAY AROUND THE GLOBE coming to meddle in our affairs.

For 9 years our government has handled this wrong, but the rich are getting richer. Do not blame a soldier until you have walked in his shoes, they do not make the rules, many times they are trying to stay alive, just like anyone else.

[Zarathustra]

Hmmmm, I was just talking about how infighting is so much fun. It is made even better when neither of the two can make a point to save their life. Gomp, he was just being a petulant baby a few days ago (and most days) when he wrote all that nonsense.

I did like the guilt by association point.

[RecoverylessRecovery]

"And they are psychopathic assholes WHO LIVE HALFWAY AROUND THE GLOBE coming to meddle in our affairs."

You're confusing the TALIBAN with Al QAIDA.

[RecoverylessRecovery]

"Hmmmm, I was just talking about how infighting is so much fun"

Obviously so for YOU, given that your posts here are mostly disruptive, off-topic and ideologically confused to the point of incoherence.

In fact I bet you work for GOLDMAN SACHS.

[RecoverylessRecovery]

"..the Taliban does not believe in that right, they kill Christians, women, children, political opposition, rule by fear and intimidation, they take over and do not win elections."

Replace 'Talibans' with 'U.S. government' and the EXACT SAME paragraph still applies. Your arguments are very similar to the ones used by the Israeli-Palestinian zealots to justify retaliations for retaliations of retaliations that were retaliated upon by other retaliations ad nauseum.

[S. Gompers]

Taliban, Al- Qaeda, Republican, Democrat, wow you are really splitting hairs here. Kinda like saying the Luftwaffe was our friend, but the SS was our enemy...

The Taliban and Al-Qaeda have enjoyed a long alliance in Afghanistan. Their relationship, based on a shared brand of severe and militant Islam, even survived the U.S.-led toppling of the Taliban in 2001, which came after leader Mullah Omar famously refused to turn over to the Americans his Al-Qaeda ally, Osama bin Laden.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hU8vi0VLAYGIFFNd6WUFeU6S3VZg

Peas in a pod, and guilty by association. Anyone who allies themselves with Al- Qaeda should be hunted to extinction.

"Your arguments are very similar to the ones used by the Israeli-Palestinian zealots to justify retaliations for retaliations of retaliations that were retaliated upon by other retaliations ad nauseum."

So Israel should have just ignored the daily rocket attacks that were being fired into Israel?

"It is made even better when neither of the two can make a point to save their life."

Keep looking for the E-stop button Gobie, make your HOA proud.

[S. Gompers]

How long have you been a member of the Westboro Baptist Church RLR.

[S. Gompers]

"The Taliban is NOT a 'terrorist' entity. It's a LIFESTYLE."

That is what I would say if I was slinging smack in support of the cause.

http://aacounterterror.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/punjab-the-epicenter-of-taliban-terrorism/

http://www.examiner.com/x-2684-Law-Enforcement-Examiner~y2010m1d25-Taliban-commander-and-terrorist-cell-leader-captured-in-Afghanistan

http://www.windweaver.com/politics/terrorism.htm

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/23/taliban-infiltrates-culture-of-pakistans-liveliest/

What a lifestyle you are choosing, it almost makes me feel dirty just wanting to live off the land and be left alone.

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2009/08/13/12-year-old-taliban-boys-first-beheading-warning-extremely-graphic-images/

http://www.break.com/usercontent/2010/2/23/the-taliban-love-their-donkeys-1755321

[S. Gompers]

"It IS time to pick a side, hmmmmm."

INDEED. And *I* myself have chosen to side with the Taliban.

They have a MUCH greater sense of DECENCY than America."

April 12, 2010 | Unregistered CommenterRecoverylessRecovery

http://dailybail.com/home/exposed-crash-the-tea-party-infiltration-effort.html#comments

[RecoverylessRecovery]

"INDEED. And *I* myself have chosen to side with the Taliban."

Indeed. And allow me to CONFIRM that comment for you;
CONFIRMED!

ANYONE that objectively weighs both bands (U.S. v Taliban) has GOT to side with the Taliban based on FAIRNESS,MORALITY AND JUSTICE. Let's review the situation. On the one hand we have a group of people who are NOTORIOUS for travelling HALFWAY around the globe if necessary in order to meddle in other sovereign nation's affairs. Up to and including federally sponsored political assasinations.This group claims to represent freedom, decency and fairness even as it obscenely TRAMPLES all three virtues CONSISTANTLY.

The OTHER group is an religious & cultural movement based within a landlocked backwards country that COMPLETELY lacks the resources, capabilities or even INTEREST to project it's ideology all the way beyond it's physical borders. And MOST CERTAINLY NOT all the way to the U.S..

THAT would be *Al Qaida*, a group of about 200 people TOPS and that are based mostly in SAUDI ARABIA.

CONGRATULATIONS!

You live in a country that is "AT WAR" with a tiny group of people, so tiny in fact that they equal in number the average amount of WalMart employee's at ONE store.
NINE years later and IT STILL HASN'T WON!

[RecoverylessRecovery]

Had the U.S. REALLY wanted to arrest those responsible it should have CRIMINALIZED the situation as was SO CLEARLY WARRANTED.

Branding the search for these suspects as a U.S.-led INTERNATIONAL POLICE ACTION would have GUARANTEED the cooperation of almost EVERY NATION IN THE WORLD. They were JUST A SHOCKED as we were and fully willing to hekp us. Together we would have had AMERICA'S MOST WANTED on steroids. 3 months and Osama would have been in CHAINS and ready for trial.

[RecoverylessRecovery]

"Had the U.S. REALLY wanted to arrest those responsible it should have CRIMINALIZED the situation as was SO CLEARLY WARRANTED"

Note: "responsible" insofar as to 9/11

[S. Gompers]

"They have a MUCH greater sense of DECENCY than America."


http://livewire.amnesty.org/2010/02/09/a-brief-overview-of-amnestys-research-on-the-taleban/

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=4TP1_jNFlZcC&oi=fnd&pg=PT12&dq=Taliban+violence+against+civilians&ots=HtxoCkiXto&sig=T0rP0J852SNWYg4ImrNLEJtDVBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Taliban+violence+against+civilians&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

http://www.progressiveislam.info/diary/2089/tablighi-jamaat-turn-against-taliban-as-violence-against-pakistani-civilians-continues

http://m.reporternews.com/news/2010/jan/13/un-taliban-cause-afghan-civilian-deaths-soar/

"NINE years later and IT STILL HASN'T WON! "

What did I say about the politicians and the industrial military complex they serve? if they have their way war will be unending, profits will be ever increasing, and taxes to pay the "patriotic" industrial military complex, lets not forget those... War costs money, and many skim the pot.

This war could have been over, and your hero's could all have their virgins (they are getting tired of sex with women after they decapitate them to instill fear in others as part of their FAIRNESS,MORALITY AND JUSTICE.), if some were allowed to do there jobs, instead of political pandering to the contributors.

You either do not read links, or the gnawing need for the "dog food" to support the cause is to great on your soul to see the truth of your blessed Taliban. you must check out the last link on my last post, that man is going to be Governor of Georgia one day, even Gobie would appreciate that one, it is after all what you are fighting for, the right to unprotected donkey sex. And how about the 12 year old learning to behead, now that is your justice and fair play.

How old were you at your first fairness beheading?

http://victoryinstitute.net/archive/category/religion/

Might want to look into Bush/ Bin Laden family business dealings, it to might help explain why resolution is not near.

Soldiers do not run wars, politicians do. and oh how they love to tie the hands for other interests...

[S. Gompers]

"Soldiers do not run wars, politicians do. and oh how they love to tie the hands for other interests..."

Lets not forget the people who vote for the politicians who tie the hands of soldiers for other interests as well.

[Zarathustra]

Gomp...I thought you had more brains, getting caught up in RLR/AB's nonsense is too funny.

[Zarathustra]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqtais99ZcE&feature=ytn%3Amptnews

Well said!!!!!

[S. Gompers]

"Well said!!!!! "

Go ahead Mr. E-stop, road of bones, the camps, the camps!, tell me how you are not stupid and paranoid. You can try to explain it away, but I can show you every stupidly paranoid post you have ever made...

I am not caught up in anything that I do not choose to be, tell Fred Phelps I said Hi.

Remember Gobie, make the face so I will recognize you, and I will offer you food.

[Zarathustra]

Why do you continue to babble, oh right, because you don't use facts or have the facts on your side. How about presenting your point of view, however confused, and stop the crazy references. How boring. Come on old man, make a point about something.

[Zarathustra]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC4LBdSnhkE

He's got a point, what is he hiding? I think we all know by now that it would change history.

[Zarathustra]

I'm on a roll, why stop when your this good!!!

From Times Online April 19, 2010

For all the frothing, nothing has been done about banks
The financiers gamble knowing that the taxpayer will always bail them out
Ross Clark

How clever of Goldman Sachs to announce £3.5 billion worth of bonuses for its staff in the week that it was sued for fraud by the Securities and Exchange Commission. It is not hard to guess what will happen next. Politicians on both sides of the Atlantic will undergo another bout of frothing at the mouth over bonuses — and will continue to procrastinate over the real problem: that banks remain too big to fail.

[S. Gompers]

"Why do you continue to babble, oh right, because you don't use facts or have the facts on your side. How about presenting your point of view, however confused, and stop the crazy references. How boring. Come on old man, make a point about something."

Gobias,

The fact that RLR and I differ in opinion on what is right or wrong in the world is of no concern of yours other than if you disagree with me, then you believe the Taliban is a good organization. Those references are called facts supporting the fact that the Taliban is not a great and good "lifestyle", as is being professed. My point is made, Men in skirts (Burkas) blowing up refugees is not a noble thing in my world, as it is in yours or RLR's, or Ken's. And neither is trying to kill your wife and daughter before flying a plane into a building, as projected in earlier posts.

It is unfortunate Gobias, that you have not the slightest clue of what is really happening in the world, yet as twisted as some of RLR's views are, he is still more intelligent than you.

Your posts the last couple of days have been repetitive, and strange ( is it the next page yet, is it the next page yet), you truly are becoming a Kenbot, as your cut and paste shows.

I see no facts from you or RLR to corraborate your "truths".

Your HOA should be proud... resume your dance in the poppy field, Osama needs your support..

The truth is easy to see, You and RLR, and Ken, have all been professing your desires for America to fail for quite some time, for separate reasons, but the end result will be the same...

I do not follow your "truths". Though I do see your belief that you are the only man born without sin since Christ

[Zarathustra]

RLR/AB is just trying to get a rise out of you by saying stupid things. I was trying to help you see clearly.

Barry Soetoro was in California helping Barbara Boxer raise money for her defeat come November. How fun.