"Silver Coins A Unique Form Of Domestic Terrorism": Liberty Dollar Founder Convicted of Counterfeiting (Interview With Larry Kudlow)
Video - Liberty Dollar Founder with Larry Kudlow - Nov. 21, 2007
Bernard von NotHaus, the man behind the Liberty Dollar and the Ron Paul Liberty Dollar, was convicted in federal court Friday of coining and circulating counterfeit money. What fascinates us about this case is the language used by the US Attorney who prosecuted the case. Working for the Western District of North Carolina, Anne Tompkins issued a statement that, among other things, accuses von NotHaus of committing "a unique form of domestic terrorism":
- “Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism. While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country. We are determined to meet these threats through infiltration, disruption, and dismantling of organizations which seek to challenge the legitimacy of our democratic form of government.”
The irony of these statements is just breathtaking. Mr. von NotHaus may have charged a few bucks over spot for his silver coins, but no one has done more to "undermine the legitimate currency of this country" than Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke and the Federal Reserve. And it is Ben Bernanke, not Bernard von NotHaus, who "represents a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country." In just over five years, Mr. Bernanke has managed to blow an enormous housing and credit bubble, nearly destroyed the entire world financial system, bailed out criminal bankers who had profited massively from the bubble, and is now working on destroying the U.S. dollar. And most of it has been done behind closed doors (literally), with almost no accountibility or oversight.
Meanwhile, Ms. Tompkins is talking tough about "infiltration, disruption and dismantling" organizatons like Mr. von NotHaus's. Hey Ms. Tompkins, ever hear of the Federal Reserve, Maiden Lane or the AIG "bailout" of Goldman Sachs and Soc. Gen.? We could have used a little bit of "infiltration" and "disruption" on those if we weren't so busy busting up gold bugs and coin dealers. No single organization represents more of a "challenge [to] the legitimacy of our democratic form of government" than the Federal Reserve. Please, audit the Fed.
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Ron Paul with a Liberty Dollar silver certificate and the Ron Paul silver dollar.
Mar 26, 2011 at 1:16 PM
Reader Comments (48)
The problem with Liberty Dollars is that a $20 piece is worth much less than $20. Its a scam. Dealers buy tokens at discounts below face value and pass them off at face value which is actually more than its own intrinsic value. In the end, those holding Liberty Dollar Tokens have been robbed by the ones above them in the food chain.
Robbed even more than the Federal Reserve robs people!
If you want to use a silver currency then use US Mint Junk Silver Coins. They are legal tender and you only pay taxes on the face value in transactions. Its only a tiny premium for the small unit form and perfectly legal to own and trade with.
But I do agree with much they have said about the Fed.
"The problem with Liberty Dollars is that a $20 piece is worth much less than $20. Its a scam."
Please correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the $20 Ron Paul coin pictured say 1 troy ounce .999 silver? So, Angel, where you getting 1 troy ounce silver coins for less than $20? And, can I make a bulk purchase with you?
He obviously has never actually looked at how it worked because he never mentions what silver base Liberty $20 he's talking about or what $20 he's comparing it to.
I have a several Liberty Dollar that would be worth way more then their FRN counterpoint if the FBI had not raiding the entire warehouse like some Nazi SS scum.
Are you suggesting ArchAngel is a CIA/ Military Internet sock puppet? Hey, no fair. They promised to only use those for foreign terrorists. Didn't we hear that about a bunch of the other military/ industrial/ intelligence complex agendas/ powers Americans have swallowed hook, line, and sinker?
I most certainly do know what I am talking about and I have looked at that and much more.
Liberty Dollars are a scam. The price of silver has gone up which has made the US dollar value of the coins go up.
But if you wanted to hold on to currency as an investment you would have done better to buy US mint junk coins instead. The premium over spot price is much lower.
http://sites.google.com/site/libertydollarencyclopedia/
The value in Liberty Dollars printed on the tokens were based on weight and a "Silver Base" factor. It changed over time.
But at no time was a new Liberty Dollar Token's value anywhere near spot price.
The dealers buy for less than face value and pawn them off on their victims at face value.
Its a scam.
You attempt to dismiss me by saying that I don't know what I am saying. Then you neglect to continue. How poor.
Tell the truth. The only ones supporting the Liberty Dollar are dealers who still have stock to dump.
Please correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the $20 Ron Paul coin pictured say 1 troy ounce .999 silver? So, Angel, where you getting 1 troy ounce silver coins for less than $20? And, can I make a bulk purchase with you?"
The $20 Ron Paul token was minted under the $20 silver base. The silver base went up to $50 since.
If you want to pay $50 for 1 ounce silver tokens then please send cash.
http://shop.ebay.com/items/ron%20paul%20liberty%20dollar?_dmd=2&_sop=12
Or you can buy them on e-bay for $33.
Yes, the value has gone up along with the price of silver. But if you had started with Junk Silver you would have ended up with greater value.
But it really doesn't matter now. The company is gone. The tokens will hold novelty value to some and be forgotten.
Really, it sounds like a great idea. But how can a second currency really work when the banks and stores won't take them? And when the token issuers are making a profit...
When the value of the dollar fell, it could buy less and therefore the price of silver rose...that's not muchj of a profit since prices in general had to go up to compensate for the devalued dollar. Silver is primarily a hedge against the devaluation of the value of the dollar and Liberty Dollar was primarily a hedge against a devalued dollar.
You DON'T know what you are talking about, Archangel. Bernard Von NotHaus was warning America for many years and finally was encouraged to try to make a difference. He led the way and took enormous risks...even though the Liberty Dollar was vetted with agencies of the US Government They saw no problem...then. Then, just as the dollar is rapidly colllapsing, the US Mint changes its stance, DOJ changes its stance just before the US Government launches an illegal bailout of the banks. Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Lehman Brothers, Washingtion Mutual, and many more are the real scam and the DOJ is failing miserably in prosecuting THAT scam.
How is this considered counterfeiting? It doesn't look like any US currency.
Why did he put a dollar denomination on the coins? I assume it would be legal without it?
I have a small business. I will gladly take non-government issued silver and gold in exchange for my services. I know I'm not alone.
Wake up, people.
Those $20 Liberty Dollar Tokens were sold when the Spot Price for silver was $15 and less.
If you had purchased Junk Silver US coins with the same money at that time the value today would have even greater value.
The most recent liberty dollars used a $50 silver base. One ounce tokens are printed as $50. But what is an ounce of silver worth? What was that ounce of silver worth on the spot market when those $50 base coins were first sold?
Bankers = Bad
Fed = Bad
Liberty Dollar = Bad
You cannot found an argument that Liberty Dollar is the good guy by pointing your fingers at the big bad guys. They're all crooks. And the slimiest ones are those who pawned off Liberty Dollars to their friends and families at face value.
Yes, inflation = bad and federal reserve = Bad.
They are bad. That does not mean that Liberty Dollar is the Knight in shining armor.
Dealers bought tokens at prices below face value. The face value at time of minting was always significantly higher than the value of the silver in the coin.
A scam.
Now, I will ask you a question.
What advantage would Liberty Dollars have over using US Mint Junk Silver or other mint coins that cost less than Liberty Dollars for the same amount of silver?
The ones with a big markup are proofs. You're paying for the high quality minting. Those are for collectors, not for barter or as currency. With Liberty Dollars the markup is [was] far more.
>How is this considered counterfeiting? It doesn't look like any US currency.
But many of the coins do have much in common with US Mint Coins.
>Why did he put a dollar denomination on the coins? I assume it would be legal without it?
Because its a scam. The purpose of the design, "Trust in God" the printed values and everything else are there to allow the dealers to pawn them off on ignorant people and make a profit.
>I have a small business. I will gladly take non-government issued silver and gold in exchange for my services. I know I'm not alone.
If you do go by weight and spot price, not by Liberty Dollars or any other unit.
want to see the future ...its a boot on face of humanity
In any case, we posted this because a) his name sounds an awful lot like "Nut House," b) he coined the famous Ron Paul dollar, and c) both when he was raided and when he was convicted the Feds made a big deal about how he was undermining the currency and whatnot as if he were the Fed Chairman himself, which is both deliciously ironic and ridiculous.
We would have posted the search warrant, which has similar language to Ms. Tompkins' press release, but we couldn't get connected to the (old) Wikileaks archives.
Interesting discussion all around.
The main thing, the critical final thing, is this: check her ankles, man. If they ain't to your liking, gtfo. Kankles are like bad clowns, straight-up bad news always.
And btw, ArchAngel, having been INVOLVED with an alternative barter currency here in Taos, I can tell you that Ithica hours and other forms of alternative currency ARE INDEED subject to Federal harassment. Indeed the only alternative money I am aware of that the Federal Government did not try to stop was that issued by Emperor Norton nearly a century ago... even the SF banks and taverns took it, but since he was clearly crazy no one was threatened enough to treat his currency as a serious threat.
The US Government, once again using its guns and cages to scare the masses into obeying it's corporate masters.
They are very similar to many silver and gold US coins. They use words like USA, Dollar and "Trust in God".
Be honest.
Look at the classic Liberty Dollar $20 piece.
Then look at the US Mint Peace Dollar.
Do they look very similar?
Compare the other Liberty Dollar Tokens to historical US Mint coins.
They all have similarities.
The fact that LD was based on actual physical values and was systematically targeted, infiltrated, and now persecuted like a "domestic terrorist" should give chills to anyone with more then a $US cent piece of common sense.
The criminal and evil here is the Federal. Attempts at distracting from that only shame those do so.
This is NOT TRUE!
The printed values on the Liberty Dollar Tokens is below market value for the silver and gold.
It was based on a price range where Liberty Dollar and their dealers could make a profit.
>Maybe ArchAngel has a vendetta or feels it's his personal responsibility to warn everyone of how evil and vile the Liberty Dollar effort was.
Telling the truth in the face of lies or ignorance is nothing of the sort. Your attempt at making this argument personal and ignoring everything I have said is below poor.
The Liberty Dollar Tokens do look like US currency and the printed prices were below market value for the tokens.
Peace dollars are NOT circulating or current money. So that argument is obvious BS.
EVERY SINGLE PERSON or merchant that accepted Liberty Dollars at face value under the $10 base or the $20 base (which constitutes the overwhelming majority of the Liberty Dollar existence) has accepted a currency that has now greatly exceeded the value at which it was originally accepted. That is what honest money is supposed to do.
Every merchant or person (in the hundreds of millions) that has accepted Federal Reserve Notes during that same time period (actually extending back to the Fed's creation) now has a currency that is worth significantly LESS that what they accepted it for.
THAT IS THE SCAM. THAT IS THE FRAUD.
Liberty Dollars have increased in value. Federal Reserve notes have decreased in value. Bernanke should be going to jail, not BVN.
Guest Post: US Justice Department Logic: Bernanke Is A Domestic Terrorist
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 03/21/2011 12:40 -0400
Ben Bernanke Department of Justice Guest Post Money Supply Precious Metals Purchasing Power Quantitative Easing
Submitted by Sovereign Man, Simon Black
US Justice Department logic: Bernanke is a domestic terrorist
The United States Department of Justice delivered a very clear and unfortunate message on Friday:
“Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism. While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country.”
These remarks were released by the US Attorney’s office in the western district of North Carolina following the conviction of one Bernard von NotHaus, the creator of the ill-fated Liberty Dollar.
As you likely recall from a few years ago, Liberty Dollars were privately minted gold and silver rounds. Paper certificates, akin to warehouse receipts were also issued, effectively giving the bearer a right to claim a certain amount of gold or silver at the group’s warehouse in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho.
This is traditionally how the system of money used to function– precious metals would be stored in private, secure storage facilities, and paper certificates were issued as a medium of exchange that entitled the bearer to redeem metal from the vault. Liberty Dollars represented a return to that system.
Clearly, the Justice Department feels otherwise… instead viewing these silver rounds as an attempt by terrorists to undermine the US dollar.
Interesting choice of words. Undermine? “verb [transitive]. to erode the base or foundation of something. to damage or weaken, especially gradually. ”
Funny, this sounds a lot more like quantitative easing than anything else. Ben Bernanke, in creating trillions of new dollars and debasing the value thereof, is guilty of the same insidious acts, and similarly, he represents a clear and present danger to the economic stability of the United States.
Somehow, though, I doubt that Homeland Security chief Janet Napolitano or Attorney General Eric Holder will end up labeling Mr. Bernanke as a domestic terrorist.
Von NotHaus faces up to 15 years in prison on one count and 5 years on two others. Punitively, this is more serious than engaging in female genital mutilation (5-years, section 116 of Title 18, US Code), certain types of assault (as little as six months, section 113), or, ironically, bank robbery (10-years, section 2113b).
The US government obviously has its priorities straight.
As for the total amount of Von NotHaus’ gold and silver booty? A whopping $7 million, roughly .000083% of Bernanke’s $8.4 trillion money supply. Von NotHaus was so insignificant he wasn’t even in the ballpark of a rounding error. By definition, this couldn’t possibly constitute a danger to the economy.
Realistically, the government’s 6-year effort to bring him down had one single purpose: to send a message. Uncle Sam is telling us very clearly, “You WILL use our rapidly depreciating dollars… and anything we don’t like in our sole discretion, we will label as domestic terrorism.”
If safeguarding the purchasing power of savings is considered domestic terrorism, what else is considered terrorism? I think this also begs the question of whether gold and silver confiscation is on the table… I’d love to hear your thoughts.
As with Kennedy, Jackson, Franklin, Lincoln, McFadden and Van Nothaus, the penalty for challenging the debt based notes of the Kings Bank is severe. It ranges from confiscation to assassination. Let's not split hairs on value. The issue is clear: a sound money has been declared illegal, and its issuer jailed because of the ideology behind it.
If he was just selling nusmismatic tokens as collectibles, for profit, he'd still be doing that today.
And ArchAngel, if he lives here in the Land of The Fee and the Home of the Naive, is bailing out fraudulent paper one way or the other. while sound money is being CONFISCATED by the FBI and SS,
http://letthemfail.us/archives/8127
WOW! This is absolutely Amazing!
You ignore all of my questions, all of the valid points I have made, and come to this conclusion.
It must really suck being stuck in a dichotomy like that. Unlike you I am free to think for myself.
One can both despise the fed and the banks and still recognize Liberty Dollars for exactly what they are, a scam.
If the things are so darn great where is the city where most stores will accept them?
And there you will always find the catch with Liberty Dollar Tokens. Dealers don't want them back. They want to spend forward and never have the rounds come back to them.
The line about currency appreciating is there to make people HOLD ON TO THE TOKENS. The scam does not work unless you get people to keep the tokens.
>Peace dollars are NOT circulating or current money. So that argument is obvious BS.
But many people will recognize them as peace dollars. Confusion about the identity of the tokens is key to the scam. They could have put any image on those tokens. That they picked one that looks very similar to a real silver coin shows intent to deceive.
The Argument that they look like US issue coins is valid. That is a crime.
If you love these Liberty Dollars so much why don't you use them for all your transactions? BECAUSE YOU CAN'T! They are not accepted at any national chain stores and almost any local stores.
>EVERY SINGLE PERSON or merchant that accepted Liberty Dollars at face value under the $10 base or the $20 base (which constitutes the overwhelming majority of the Liberty Dollar existence) has accepted a currency that has now greatly exceeded the value at which it was originally accepted.
This is a lie in itself. The coins still have the same value. They are all still worth an ounce of silver. But that ounce of silver cost you more than from any other source!
Its easy to do. Make Tokens that don't look like any US currency, make the units honest and not directly related to the Dollar and don't create a system where those who issue the tokens make 15% or more profit from distributing.
This current system of Liberty Dollars was built to perpetrate scams against innocent people who are not given the full truth with which to decide the value of a barter token.
Could you please show me one single instance where I have endorsed the Fed. I despise the Fed and the system that it represents.
Liberty Dollar is even worse.
You say that Liberty Dollar represents sound money.
What kind of sound does it make when you take those tokens to the bank? What about if you take those tokens to the Grocery store. Run down to the local office with a pocket full and pay your electric bill. FIll up your tank and clank some of them down on the counter to pay.
The reality of the Liberty Dollar is that the idea of using those tokens as a secondary currency are all just fantasy. It never happened and it never could have happened.
Assuming that it was introduced into a community it would be impossible to stop a truth seeker from finding out the uncomfortable truth and telling everyone else. Armed with torches and pitchforks the deceived townspeople would go get their money back from the scammers.
The only way for a system like that to work is for people to be aware of the way the system works with the rules equal for everyone.
I wonder how many Liberty Dollar dealers took back more Liberty Dollar tokens at current Silver Base than they sold. I bet the number is zero. Any disagreements with that guess?
They can say that it is an alternative currency all they want. What good is their word if you can't find one single place that will accept them as currency?
At the coin stores all but the limited editions and Ron Paul coins are sold at rates similar to junk silver or they are not bought and sold at all.
A few of the coins hold novelty value today. But thats likely to fall now that the company and its founder are gone.
It is the strength of my points and the extreme volume of holes in your arguments that led to multiple replies.
One small half truth or outright lie is not defeated with the same short breath.
>I have already made my points
But none of your points acknowledge the flaws with the Liberty Dollar Tokens' system.
None of your points acknowledge that Liberty Dollars have no advantage over other Tokens and Coins that cost less for the same amount of silver.
Anyone with eyes can see that this is a scam. Back in the day they were selling $14 worth of silver to dealers for $16.95. The dealers were then pawning them off on people for $20.
That is a scam. Its being sold as an alternative currency, but its not accepted as such anywhere. The ones accepting Liberty Dollars are the fools suckered in by the scammers.
No stores accept them. If this is not true please provide a reference for stores accepting them. No banks accept them. No corporations accept them. No utilities accept them.
In fact, the only ones who will accept them as replacement currency are fools who don't know what they are really worth.
Liberty Dollar said that their Tokens were great, amazing, fantastic, unbelievable, awesome, winning, patriotic alternative currency.
They said that the Fed sucks, robs, cheats, lies, steals, rapes, kidnaps, murders, pillages, gives wedgies, puts gum in your hair and smacked your mother upside the head.
But what did they take in exchange for their awesome Liberty Dollar Tokens when they sold them?
8~/
It's merely a curtain of illusion encouraged by elite controlled government. Sheeple never look behind curtains when they're told not to.
The scam is huge compared with the Fed. All new Liberty Dollars introduced as alternative currency robbed the people accepting them of at least 25% of the face value.
Yearly inflation is much less.
Liberty Dollars are not used as an alternative currency. If you want to use silver as an investment to hedge against inflation you should buy bullion or junk coins which cost much less for each ounce of silver.
I'll still take a piece of silver over it's spot value in Federal Reserve debt any day.
What's the difference here. I have always been taught that only congress has the right to coin money.
Something is really wrong with this picture.
Who coins and prints your US money?
Its the US Treasury. It is authorized by Congress.
Printing and coining Money is a CHORE.
Issuing currency is a chore.
Issuing Credit is the greatest power.
Credit turns fiction and thin air printed or coined currency.
The power lies in the hands of the Federal Reserve, a private corporation. And the Constitution is not violated.
The other thing is that the Federal Reserve Notes are units of debt. Printed right there on the bills it says they are for the payment of debts. They are not a unit of value. When you give someone a FRN dollar you are not moving a dollar of value forwards. You are moving a dollar of debt backwards.
Pretend that you are a lawyer and read through the constitution as if you were one of the Banksters.
Compare the classic $20 1 ounce Liberty Dollar with the US Mint Peace Dollar.
The theme is identical. Composition differs slightly.
Jct: Now they can attack all community currencies like Ithaca Hours too for "undermining" the legitimate currency. Remember how I'd warned that Bernard von NotHaus was a bankster mole who made his money as close to the real think to incur the wrath of government and bring repression onto all other community currencies. Remember how people had turned to community currencies during the Great Depression and the Roosevelt banned them causing the deaths of an extra 7 million Americans. How many historians tell you about the American blood on FDR's hands.